D. W. : Some schools of thought declare that the goals are different. Some say that the final objective is a state of bliss whilst others say that no sensations will be left. The goals seems to be basically completely different - or not? Prof. Engel : If one takes a closer look one finds that it is not all that different. One has to consider what is meant with feelings, respectively the absence of feeling. Very advanced teachers within any religion would probably not contest the idea that feelings have to be transcended at some stage. But certainly not at the beginning. This is the reason why the paths must be accurately described. When is what ready for whom? We have completely different stages of experiencing things. One can hardly talk about bliss within certain sections of the path, because calmer forms come to the fore. I don’t believe that the goal is all that different. D. W. : You write in your book that some proponent of your form of meditation are able to convince themselves that they have achieved the specified final stage. With other directions of meditation, it looks as if nobody has ever reached the specified goal and the question whether it is actually attainable remains open. How do we verify whether someone has actually reached their goal or not? How credible are the answers in questionnaires that also play an important role in the systematic examination of states of meditation? Prof. Engel : I will tell you once again a little story: A bishop was asked to assess a Christian monk. He didn’t ask many questions, he dressed himself in a simple fashion and went to the monastery of this monk. Once there, he simply observed him. How did the concerned person deal with people? How did he approach them and how caring was his emanation? It has been a tradition to observe very closely. You could probably ascertain a few things with the help of a questionnaire, because one can assume that these pages were filled with a certain amount of credibility. But on the other hand, we naturally have great access to systematic observations. The social sciences have some sophisticated systems of observation that have never been applied in meditation research up to now. For instance, video camera, tape recorder, speech analysis etc. And we have the broad spectrum of psychological measurements. Someone who asserts to experience Samadhi, must display certain physical phenomena. They have nothing to hide. If we include subjective observation, namely questionnaires, objective observations and also physiological research, we already have three criteria that spontaneously spring to mind. D. W. : Who can accomplish this? Who is going to deal with it? I think that this would be the most effective way to eliminate charlatans on the one hand and of finding an effective opportunity to find out which path people could take on the other hand. This would virtually kill two birds with one stone. Prof. Engel : I do believe in the first place that charlatans will eliminate themselves anyway. They cannot maintain the whole thing for a lengthy period of time. This is why I wouldn’t pay them too much attention in this respect, even though they can do a lot of damage at times. Something else would be much more important, but the time is not quite ripe. The systematic procedure will prevail by itself. Let’s assume that I am a behavioural therapist and that I have success with meditation; I will naturally advertise this. I will therefore introduce myself and make the whole thing public. If
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