D. W. : But this is where we naturally also encounter difficulties. According to my opinion, so many sects have been established in the meantime that do not adhere to the numerous important principles that lead to spiritual growth. - You emphasis the importance of a teacher. How can one find the right teacher without exposing oneself to the danger of ending up in a dangerous faction? Prof. Engel : Through my prehistory, I am very much focused on empirical, pragmatical work. I believe that the better one can objectively ask: “What actually constitutes a good teacher?” “What qualities must he have?” “When is he an enlightened one and when is he a charlatan?” the better things will be. The sooner we can precisely define this, the sooner we can say: This is a direction that is rather more beneficial and that is a direction that is rather a hindrance. The tradition was that the pupils principally do not necessarily listen to what their teacher had to say, they travelled with him from place to place for weeks and months and simply observed him. What sort of life does he lead? What is he ego like? How selfless is he? It’s not what he says - that is something we can only believe. If one looks at this more precisely, one will be able to distinguish between the charlatans and the helpful. Based on my experiences I ascertained that the helpful teachers do not differ from one another all that much. One important factor is that in principal, nothing must be kept secret. A more advanced teacher has nothing to hide. Everyone was able to get access to great meditative teachers. But not everyone can simply assert the claim of being an enlightened one. This is where we must apply a criterium - the way it is already the case with Buddhism - in order to separate the wheat from the chaff. One may certainly test the teachers. When you talk to someone harshly, a teacher for instance, and when you find that he reacts negatively and emotionally - he is certainly not a very advanced human being. D. W. : One should therefore severely test a teacher? Prof. Engel : Yes - I would certainly say so. Particularly in a situation where we encounter a lot of misuse. D. W. : There are different directions for gaining enlightenment. On the one hand one can gain enlightenment through meditation through renouncing the world and on the other hand by turning towards the world and by serving others. Do you think that the feelings felt at the end of either path are similar or are there serious differences? Prof. Engel : I have not yet reached my goal; I can therefore only speculate about it or I can quote. I assume that various ways lead to the same goal. To help others more - thereby helping oneself more and others at the same time - are two parallel paths. Some go within and discover in this way the surmounting of the subject-object-division, or one could also say that it is about the disengagement of the ego so that a you and a me no longer exist - or on the other hand the external way, whereby they find the same. Which path to choose depends on the individual himself. It doesn’t matter at the end whether you upgrade the you or whether you downgrade the self. Whether you choose an introverted or an extroverted path depends on the type of person you are. The goal is the same.